People who are interested in Open Theism should know that it is not blaspheming God. It is not blasphemy to say God does not know the future. Scripture does show God has some future knowledge, but our human tendencies take the future knowledge he has and assume he has more than he says.
1. The Bible doesn't say anywhere he has total and complete future knowledge of every event. Really! However, scripture does say he has some future knowledge, but it not right to add to scripture's account and say that "some" means "all". Instead, we should say "some future knowledge" means "some future knowledge."
2. Future knowedge is not necessary for God to be in control. He at any moment could do anything with creation he wished to do, so even without future knowledge, God is still extremely powerful, and "extremely" is an understatement.
3. Love requires freedom. If a man loves a woman, he doesn't force her to love him back by trapping her. Love must be allow freedom. If God is love, he wouldn't foreordain every single last thing in the world. Even though God does make future plans, he does not make every single thing he plans come about if he sees fit.
Take Jonah. Sent to prophesy that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. God told him to go. But 40 days later, God didn't fulfill the prophecy. He instead changed his mind because the people changed their hearts. Had the future really been known, God would have known he wasn't going to destroy the city in 40 days and would not have said he would.
If you would like to discuss Open Theism, check out this discussion forum at Theology Online.com
Sunday, March 25, 2007
Thursday, March 22, 2007
God's Passion
It is hard to imagine how a God who cannot change can feel anything. If he knows the future so perfectly, he already knows what will happen, how long it will last, and how it is going to feel.
But what if God really didn't know the future so perfectly? Before you close the idea out, just think about it. What would that mean about his passion towards you and your prayers?
God doesn't need a crystal ball, showing him the future, to know how to react or what to do. He is God, he can take care of things with but a snap of his fingers, future knowledge is a luxury he can do without. There are other posts on this blog that explain why it is a biblical concept.
But back to the subject. Think about God's passion, and how real it must be if God didn't foresee and foreordain every event in human history.
Think back to creation. It is said Adam and Eve were being tested when they were given the Tree of Life. If God didn't know the outcome of that test before he put it in place, that would mean it was truly a real test. A test God surly hoped that man would pass. Please, try to imagine what it was like when God saw Adam fail the test.
God knew the answer to the questions because he saw the events unfold, but if he didn't foresee this, imagine the heartbreak. The hopes crushed. And that is true, God can really hope, he can really wish for something. He can truly desire. What passion he must have!
Think about the passion:
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" - Jesus
Jonah 4:11
"And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?” - God
John 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." - Jesus
If God knows the future perfectly, every single event, this makes patience nearly impossible, hopes vanished, and leaves no room for passion. This is why scripture does not say he knows all of the future. Instead it shows God changing his mind about prophecies of doom because of his passion for the people, just like he did in Jonah.
But what if God really didn't know the future so perfectly? Before you close the idea out, just think about it. What would that mean about his passion towards you and your prayers?
God doesn't need a crystal ball, showing him the future, to know how to react or what to do. He is God, he can take care of things with but a snap of his fingers, future knowledge is a luxury he can do without. There are other posts on this blog that explain why it is a biblical concept.
But back to the subject. Think about God's passion, and how real it must be if God didn't foresee and foreordain every event in human history.
Think back to creation. It is said Adam and Eve were being tested when they were given the Tree of Life. If God didn't know the outcome of that test before he put it in place, that would mean it was truly a real test. A test God surly hoped that man would pass. Please, try to imagine what it was like when God saw Adam fail the test.
Gen 3
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
God knew the answer to the questions because he saw the events unfold, but if he didn't foresee this, imagine the heartbreak. The hopes crushed. And that is true, God can really hope, he can really wish for something. He can truly desire. What passion he must have!
Think about the passion:
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" - Jesus
Jonah 4:11
"And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?” - God
John 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." - Jesus
If God knows the future perfectly, every single event, this makes patience nearly impossible, hopes vanished, and leaves no room for passion. This is why scripture does not say he knows all of the future. Instead it shows God changing his mind about prophecies of doom because of his passion for the people, just like he did in Jonah.
Saturday, March 17, 2007
The Fallacies against Total Foreknowledge
There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that tells us that God knows all of the future. There is no doubt that God does know some future events, but does he know all of it? Most importantly, did he know Adam and Eve would fall? It may be shocking, but it is true. There is no verse that tells us that God knows all of the future. Some do show some future knowledge, yet so many people take that to mean he knows all of the future. Why do we conclude that he knows all of the future? In part, because of tradition, but we also use logical reasoning.
This equation shows the logical thought process used to prove God has 100% future knowledge:
"A" knows all of the future because "A" predicted that "B" would happen with accuracy.
"A" = 'God', "B" = 'some bible prophecy', such as 'Peter denying Christ'.
So with this logical thinking, God knows all of the future because God predicted Peter would deny Christ. But is this really true? Does predicting a future event mean someone knows all of the future?
If you substitute "A" with an actual person and "B" with an event they predicted, the conclusion is not they knew all of the future.
"A" = My mother
"B" = Get married
My mother predicted that one day I would get married. Therefore my mother knows the all of future.
Did it happen? Yes. Therefore "A" (mom) knows all of the future. This logic fails big time. But there are other logical conclusions that try to prove God's unending future knowledge.
If the we can repeatedly show someone knows future events it is more likely or true that that person knows all of the future.
“A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.
Thus it is said that because God predicted Peter and Judas, the crucifixion, and the book or revelations, thus God knows the all of future.
But, again, my mom predicted that one day I would go to high school, that I would have a broken heart from a girl turning me down, that one day I would learn to drive a car, and that I would go to the prom and graduate. She said I would go to college, despite my non-willingness to go. And to this day she thinks me and my wife will have children. Therefore, mom knows all of the future?
Do you see? It is obvious my mother does not know the future, yet if you plug her into the equation, she does! But we know there is some other explanation... that is she knows me well enough, and she knows life of the typical American boy growing up. She knows what happens when you get married, and she believed and hoped I would find someone.
But there is one more logical conclusion to consider that we use to prove God's future knowledge includes every event in time:
"A" is powerful. Thus "A" can do "A-Z" (i.e. everything).
But there are problems with this, because we know God doesn't do everything just because he is powerful. For example, God is powerful, can he be the worst sinner? No. Some things are impossible for God, and sin is one of them. His inability to sin does not make him weaker, or less of a God.
Yet we also know God is so powerful that know he knows everything. But what is time? Is time a thing to be known by God? The truth is we do not know a lot about time. There are so many theories, each with their own sets of proofs, that science does not understand time. We must rely on what God tells us to understand the future, and What he knows about it, without assuming.
When it comes to future knowledge, we can only say God knows what he says he knows. We shouldn't take it to the next level and say he knows everything.
Here are those equations again:
“A” knows the future because “A” accurately predicted “B”.
“A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.
“A” is powerful. Therefore A can do A-Z (i.e. everything).
"A" knows everything. Therefore, "A" knows all of the future (even though isn't a thing)
We cannot prove through logical thinking with the evidence that we have how much of the future God knows. All we can do is say God knows the future event's he says he knows. Which brings us back to Adam and Eve...
So many people struggle with one question. "Why would God create a world like this one if he is so loving?" But what if God didn't know how things would turn out? We have no evidence to say God knew our world would come to this when he created it. What we do know is He created it to be "very good." But it is obvious this world is not very good any more.
Man is truly to blame. God created us to take care of the world he created, thinking we would follow him. God didn't know Adam and Eve wouldn't follow him. So when man turned his back on God and took this world in his own hands, God let him, but had no part of it, nor did he see it happening.
This equation shows the logical thought process used to prove God has 100% future knowledge:
"A" knows all of the future because "A" predicted that "B" would happen with accuracy.
"A" = 'God', "B" = 'some bible prophecy', such as 'Peter denying Christ'.
So with this logical thinking, God knows all of the future because God predicted Peter would deny Christ. But is this really true? Does predicting a future event mean someone knows all of the future?
If you substitute "A" with an actual person and "B" with an event they predicted, the conclusion is not they knew all of the future.
"A" = My mother
"B" = Get married
My mother predicted that one day I would get married. Therefore my mother knows the all of future.
Did it happen? Yes. Therefore "A" (mom) knows all of the future. This logic fails big time. But there are other logical conclusions that try to prove God's unending future knowledge.
If the we can repeatedly show someone knows future events it is more likely or true that that person knows all of the future.
“A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.
Thus it is said that because God predicted Peter and Judas, the crucifixion, and the book or revelations, thus God knows the all of future.
But, again, my mom predicted that one day I would go to high school, that I would have a broken heart from a girl turning me down, that one day I would learn to drive a car, and that I would go to the prom and graduate. She said I would go to college, despite my non-willingness to go. And to this day she thinks me and my wife will have children. Therefore, mom knows all of the future?
Do you see? It is obvious my mother does not know the future, yet if you plug her into the equation, she does! But we know there is some other explanation... that is she knows me well enough, and she knows life of the typical American boy growing up. She knows what happens when you get married, and she believed and hoped I would find someone.
But there is one more logical conclusion to consider that we use to prove God's future knowledge includes every event in time:
"A" is powerful. Thus "A" can do "A-Z" (i.e. everything).
But there are problems with this, because we know God doesn't do everything just because he is powerful. For example, God is powerful, can he be the worst sinner? No. Some things are impossible for God, and sin is one of them. His inability to sin does not make him weaker, or less of a God.
Yet we also know God is so powerful that know he knows everything. But what is time? Is time a thing to be known by God? The truth is we do not know a lot about time. There are so many theories, each with their own sets of proofs, that science does not understand time. We must rely on what God tells us to understand the future, and What he knows about it, without assuming.
When it comes to future knowledge, we can only say God knows what he says he knows. We shouldn't take it to the next level and say he knows everything.
Here are those equations again:
“A” knows the future because “A” accurately predicted “B”.
“A” knows the future because of the large number of accurate predictions.
“A” is powerful. Therefore A can do A-Z (i.e. everything).
"A" knows everything. Therefore, "A" knows all of the future (even though isn't a thing)
We cannot prove through logical thinking with the evidence that we have how much of the future God knows. All we can do is say God knows the future event's he says he knows. Which brings us back to Adam and Eve...
So many people struggle with one question. "Why would God create a world like this one if he is so loving?" But what if God didn't know how things would turn out? We have no evidence to say God knew our world would come to this when he created it. What we do know is He created it to be "very good." But it is obvious this world is not very good any more.
Man is truly to blame. God created us to take care of the world he created, thinking we would follow him. God didn't know Adam and Eve wouldn't follow him. So when man turned his back on God and took this world in his own hands, God let him, but had no part of it, nor did he see it happening.
Debunking Predestination
How can God be patient without time? Some Say this verse is proof that God is outside of time and predestined everything:
Revelation 13:8 ... the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
It isn't a proof verse at all. Read it in its entirety "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Some of you will remember sentence diagrams from high school:
What is the subject of the sentence?
The antichrist is.
And who is worshiping him?
The "those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life"
Since when?
"From the foundation of the world."
Whose book was it?
“The Lamb who was slain”
So Jesus was not slain at creation at all. Anytime you read a translation, you have to be careful not to get too fixed on a particular word. What is important is the meaning.
This small sentence is trying to make a point. These people who are worshiping antichrist are not, not were they ever, written in the Lambs book of life. Trying to point out how dramatic that is and how intolerable what they are doing really is.
It isn’t proof text for the Settled View either. It just says, up to that point in time, they weren’t in the book, and if God doesn’t know the future, that is logical. How can you invite someone to a party, or not invite them, until you know them?
Lets explore the logics of this idea, just tho show how impossible it is.
To say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, you would have to be talking about the physical Jesus, who could die, as he was flesh. And the Bible does not contradict itself, it clearly shows this event happened one time around 30 AD, and is not required to happen more than once.
Something else: People speak of time as if it were a creation. Time is not some object. It is just a sequence of events. So before creation, before there was matter or atoms, or any kind of mass or space, the event of God saying "let there be light," happened sequentially. Time! God does not require creation to perform an action. And like it or not, that's all time is, actions after actions. And God is full of actions; he is a god that never rests.
Settled Viewers/Calvinist believe time is like a script. Every event is laid out and it can be read by someone powerful enough. That's what time is to them! So, they must therefore think that God created a script, and we call it time. That's how he is outside of "time", he's sitting there reading this funny little script called "Your Life!"
So that must mean that God created "time" i.e. a script, and that's how he knows the future. So he authored the script / created the events / ordained the actions that lead to the rape of an innocent child. That's how he does it! That's how he knows the future.
What a bad, terrible thing to say about a loving God. To say "The God who cannot be tempted by evil is really behind it all, ‘cause he 'created time' so he could know the future". You value your perception of God over his reputation of being a just and loving god if you believe this. And I must rebuke that. IF your faith is shaken by the idea that God does not know the future, fear not. The alternitive is worst.
Any theology that places God in the situation of being the author of sin is one, anyone should know in their heart of hearts, needs rethinking! I love the God who loves us all, not one who doomed us.
Revelation 13:8 ... the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
It isn't a proof verse at all. Read it in its entirety "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Some of you will remember sentence diagrams from high school:
What is the subject of the sentence?
The antichrist is.
And who is worshiping him?
The "those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life"
Since when?
"From the foundation of the world."
Whose book was it?
“The Lamb who was slain”
So Jesus was not slain at creation at all. Anytime you read a translation, you have to be careful not to get too fixed on a particular word. What is important is the meaning.
This small sentence is trying to make a point. These people who are worshiping antichrist are not, not were they ever, written in the Lambs book of life. Trying to point out how dramatic that is and how intolerable what they are doing really is.
It isn’t proof text for the Settled View either. It just says, up to that point in time, they weren’t in the book, and if God doesn’t know the future, that is logical. How can you invite someone to a party, or not invite them, until you know them?
Lets explore the logics of this idea, just tho show how impossible it is.
To say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, you would have to be talking about the physical Jesus, who could die, as he was flesh. And the Bible does not contradict itself, it clearly shows this event happened one time around 30 AD, and is not required to happen more than once.
Something else: People speak of time as if it were a creation. Time is not some object. It is just a sequence of events. So before creation, before there was matter or atoms, or any kind of mass or space, the event of God saying "let there be light," happened sequentially. Time! God does not require creation to perform an action. And like it or not, that's all time is, actions after actions. And God is full of actions; he is a god that never rests.
Settled Viewers/Calvinist believe time is like a script. Every event is laid out and it can be read by someone powerful enough. That's what time is to them! So, they must therefore think that God created a script, and we call it time. That's how he is outside of "time", he's sitting there reading this funny little script called "Your Life!"
So that must mean that God created "time" i.e. a script, and that's how he knows the future. So he authored the script / created the events / ordained the actions that lead to the rape of an innocent child. That's how he does it! That's how he knows the future.
What a bad, terrible thing to say about a loving God. To say "The God who cannot be tempted by evil is really behind it all, ‘cause he 'created time' so he could know the future". You value your perception of God over his reputation of being a just and loving god if you believe this. And I must rebuke that. IF your faith is shaken by the idea that God does not know the future, fear not. The alternitive is worst.
Any theology that places God in the situation of being the author of sin is one, anyone should know in their heart of hearts, needs rethinking! I love the God who loves us all, not one who doomed us.
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